It’s Not Rocket Science! Five Questions Over Coffee with Denise Matthews (ep. 16)

Who is Denise?

Denise is a Licensed Career Coach with a background as an executive recruitment specialist, I have a passion for all areas of Talent and Leadership Development. As a career coach, who mostly supports those who are already established in the workplace and who want to identify their next career move or switch. As a Career Coach her clients are middle to executive management – either ready to plan their next move into a different or more senior role, perhaps considering options for a career switch or those who are in the job market for other reasons – all with one goal, to find a job they love and enjoy. With extensive operational experience and over 20 years in Recruitment & Coaching, she adds value both for the employer and employee by working in partnership to find the perfect match.

Key Takeaways

1. Before starting the job search – but they haven’t actually done the foundations of really exploring why they will be the right person to do that job
2. At least 65% of jobs that are in the market, never hit an advert.
3. You need to understand how the hiring company wants to receive your CV. i.e. lad bible do not want to see your CV

Valuable Free Resource or Action

Denise has free resource – how you apply for jobs and the best ways to do it on the my career change Facebook group.

Find details at linkedin.com/in/denisematthews

Transcript

Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)

Stuart Webb 0:40

Hi everyone and welcome back to it’s not rocket science five questions over coffee. sitting here with Denise Matthews is a brilliant career coach got a great programme, we have a really fascinating discussion, I think about career change and how she helps people through that difficult way, really topical at the moment because of course, a lot of people following the pandemic have been rethinking what they’re doing. And the jobs market is really hot. So I think we’re gonna have a really fascinating discussion. Hi, Denise, welcome to, it’s not rocket science. Thanks for inviting me. Sure, no problem at all. So what’s the biggest challenge your ideal client has, when you first meet with them?

Denise Matthews 1:18

I think for lots of people that I mean, they come from a couple of different camps really, all wanting the same thing. But they come from two different areas. So topically at the moment, because of what’s happened over the last 18 months or so. Some people are finding themselves out of work unexpectedly, it was never part of the plan. You know, January last year, they were in a career, we had long term potential, you know, there might been an airline pilot or something like that, or an airline pilot and training, and then suddenly, the bottoms falling out of their world, and they don’t know what to do, and they’re in a really difficult position. And so we’re talking to quite love people like that. So that’s, you know, where do I go? What do I do? And then the other part of client, for me is the other people that they perhaps fell into a job, they’re perhaps really, really good at it. And they’ve been incredibly successful. You know, one of my clients is absolutely top of his game. But he just doesn’t like it anymore. He does not love what he does. And, you know, so it’s a case of looking with people like that as what skills have they’ve gotten? Where are they? And can we transfer that into something else? Or never something, they just want to do something entirely different? So I think the common thread for both of them is, I’m in a position I didn’t exactly plan for and I don’t know what to do. Basset. So how do we work that out?

Stuart Webb 2:46

That’s brilliant. Yeah, I so I so I sort of sympathise with some people that go into a job and then discover that they actually don’t really like it. And being able to sort of find your way out is so difficult because of course, you look around and people will turn around. So you want experience for any job, you want that they always turn around and say we’ve got to experience interior, but you know, I’ve got loads of experiences just in something else. Yeah. So equally applicable to what you’re trying to do. So what’s the common mistake people try and try to do by themselves to solve some of these problems in order to do that career change?

Denise Matthews 3:26

I think a lot of people, yeah. I mean, some people do come to us with a bit of an idea about what they might want to do, you know, they, they might have some ideas sort of as glimmers there. But what a lot of people tend to do they start off from a quite knee jerk in the way they approach the situation. So the internet’s made it so easy, hasn’t it for us to find out what’s happening out there, what jobs are out there. And people start to scatter gun and just literally send applications out, you know, do letters of interest, all that sort of thing. But they haven’t actually done the foundations of really exploring about why they will be the right person to do that. And is that is that organisation, an organisation organisation that would be open to someone willing to make that career transition. And I think that’s what people really muddy the waters because sometimes when they come to us, things that we could have worked on and work together as to how to approach the perfect organisation that might be out there for what they want to do. They’ve already muddied the waters by going in there, you know, without that finesse of working out how they’re going to make the application, or there’s some things they need to do before they actually go for that, you know, do they do need to do another collocation? That’s what some my clients didn’t the moment they’re doing an extra qualification that puts them at the top of the pile. when things change or for the job that they want. So people are accepting. They’ve got to do some extra, you know, planning around their qualifications and things like that as well. But yeah, there are certainly ways as well that you can go in and, you know, find a friendly way through, you know, the world of networking is just so brilliant, and utilising that well, people don’t sort of think about it in that way. And yeah, they, that really helps. That’s one of the things we do we pick, we sit and work out who you know, who can talk to you about what this job actually is.

Stuart Webb 5:25

It’s interesting, you mentioned that work today is sort of, I don’t want to, I don’t want to sort of draw you into too many discussions around this. But I think it’s an important point to talk about, you know, a lot of people nowadays talk about the sort of the applicant tracking system and sort of making sure that you have the right word in your CV to get through the applicant tracking system. And I think you’ll ignore your network at your peril, don’t you because you forget that in actual fact, most jobs out there are not even advertised, let alone on some board or with an applicant tracking system, most of them are in somebody’s head, and all you need to do is make use of the knowledge in order to extract the information that you want from them to get it.

Denise Matthews 6:04

Yeah, it’s absolutely right. I think that the stats, I was reading about them, because the last week and the stats are that there are about at least 65% of jobs that are in the market, never hit an advert. They don’t go there at all. They are literally worked on the network, or people use them from talent, banking, you know, good organisations that are forward thinking have a talent bank, they see applications come in, or letters of interest come in, and they or someone tells them about somebody and they put them in a pot. And you know, when I’ve been there, I’ve been on the other hand end of that hiring grid team and saying, hang on, didn’t we had someone for that we know what whatever, and you go back and you trade it through and by talking to that person, as a recruiter as well, which obviously is my original background, is that you also awaken ideas for yourself as a recruiter, because if you find someone who’s interested in that, it leads you to other people who know that person and you know the organization’s so it’s a really good way if you could approach people in organisations in that way. But yeah, no, it’s about 65% of jobs, not not actually hit the adverts. You know, they’re found in other ways, and a lot by now internal referral systems in organisations. So you know, you might know somebody that works for a business that you think well, they, and nothing like what I want to do. But actually, if they go in and tell their organisation about you, they probably up for a 500 pound or a 5000 pound bonus. So yeah, work out what does your network, you know, do and where are they? And is that relevant?

Stuart Webb 7:42

Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, no, I just think it’s something which is we, you know, we don’t hear enough people talking about the network and the effects of knowing people. And that, you know, that talent bank, you’re absolutely right, the, you know, that the fact of the matter is, people just keep saying, or, or find somebody on the net, or do so into actual fact, you already probably know the person you want to employ. And you just haven’t yet sort of worked out or get to them. That’s, as part of the experience of sort of, you know, understanding how to go about recruiting is not completely. So what’s the valuable free resource, and I suspect it’s got something to do with what’s going on the scroll at the bottom of the screen was that valuable free resource that you, you point out to the audience that will help them to understand their career change, and how you help them understand some of these challenges.

Denise Matthews 8:34

So we’re working on that all the time, and constantly trying to bring or working to bring new things to that. So that, you know, we can help people in different ways along the journey I’m working on, on a new product that’s going we’re going to be sharing a free resource soon all around, and how you apply for jobs and the best ways to do it and things like that. So that’ll be coming out in a few weeks time on the my career change Facebook group. And we’ll have will actually shortly as well have a website. It’s in its final stages, we’ve had a full refresh, and it will be there. The elevate careers coaching website. But there is on there at the moment, some we held last month, a really interesting event. And I decided that I wanted to put together an a summit of people who have made career changes or have shifted inside their own organisation because that is of course, the other thing you can do. If you can make a shift inside your business, then that’s fantastic, because you keep all your benefits, something like that. And if you work for an enlightened employer that will allow you to do that then that is fabulous. So I’d gather together a group of people, some of whom I’ve coached and some of people that I just know by reputation, who are all really good in their fields. And I also gather together Perth recruiters who I think are out there on the leading edge of what they do, and who are willing to spend some time helping people. So it was a free event and all the information is still up on the site. So you can go in and have a look. But we had people come to talk to me about. And so I’ve got a girl who called shareen. And serinus, got a size 10 and a half foot. And she’s had that since she was a very young child. And so she really understands about the discomfort of having something about your body that makes you stand out. And so her mission, and she is so inspiring. Her mission was that she was going to do something about that as time went on. And she had this vision for, for being a footwear manufacturer. She works in housing for a council, that’s what she does, and she’s got qualifications things. But she’s taking herself off and got herself trying and got herself some amazing mentors, and actually got herself crowdfunded. And she has now got a range of shoes, which is available for people with large faith, and they are fabulous, and a beautiful quality. And, you know, she, she really inspired me and all of my candidates, obviously, I’m coaching at the moment, have all watched her. And everyone has come back and gone. Wow. You know, when you listen to that story, it makes you realise that actually anything is possible. And that whole bubble of self belief, but she says she held herself back for years, didn’t you know, but then suddenly, one day thought, right, and I do this I got to do. So Shireen Headley, she’s great listen to. And then you know, I’ve got people on there who, you know, I’ve got a lady was a police inspector. Now she’s an international cake and product designer. And she’s phenomenal. And in 10 years, she’s completely changed things around and made a better life for our family. And it wasn’t she was unhappy in the place, it was just that she wanted something that worked better with family and all that sort of thing. And her story, you know, don’t backlash, again, incredible, but that all really good stories. And well, you know that what they do and what you want to do as a as a candidate might not be the same. But what it shows you is the possibilities, and the ways to look at things and how your mindset needs to be when you go on the journey of career change. And so it’s a great free resource. And we’ve also got, you know, we’ve got a recruiter on there talking about what happens when the applications come in. And we’ve got the in house recruiters from blood Bible, who talk about what they look for, because they don’t recruit by CVS, they recruit by LinkedIn profiles, they don’t look at the CV, they’re not bothered. Well dream it, they like the CV, but they just like it from a factual point of view, they don’t want any big statements on it, they just want to look at the facts, because they recruit values, as well as skills. So it’s interesting that the recruitment market is moving on so much. And it helps candidates I think, to understand what’s happening out there. Interesting, that lead Bible,

Stuart Webb 13:21

don’t even use a CV, that’s a fascinating insight that I don’t think would have come out without that sort of summit that you just talked about. Because that’s not the sort of thing that people hear about that they just think the CV is the only way and yet, there is so much out there at the moment on social media that actually you’ve got to be really careful that it all does line up, and you’ve got it all pointing in the right direction.

Denise Matthews 13:48

Yeah, I mean, we’ve had people lose jobs, you know, because their social media has lose the opportunity for a job, because the social media hasn’t matched up with the, what’s been presented, led by will also do a lot on video. So, you know, people have to submit video of their work and things like that, because obviously the type of organisation is they’re expected to be able to do that, and reels and all that type of thing. So yeah, the market is definitely moving. Definitely. Interesting. new angle. Interesting. Younger.

Stuart Webb 14:17

Yeah, that’s, that’s what I’m gonna have to watch. Possibly not with, with my particular skill set, but there you go. So what’s the concept or programme that’s, that’s most sort of inspired you and you think will be most impactful for the audience in your experience?

Denise Matthews 14:35

So I’m licenced career coach, and I use a programme that’s been around probably for about 1516 years. So it’s really well validated. And it’s got three stages to it. And that’s the reason I like it is because it’s not something that when people come to me to talk about that, they they think this is what they want to do, because everyone starts with thinking that And yeah, we do an explore phone call, obviously in the first instance or an explore zoom, and to find out why they’re there, and why they think that. And then from that, I sort of come to a decision to help them through the process of deciding if they need the full programme of, I don’t know where I’m going, I don’t know what I’m doing. And I just need to really explore everything I possibly can, right the way through to take into the practicalities. And then into, you know, how they’re going to apply and how they’re going to get to the job interviews. So that’s the full pace. And we call it and call it explore, dream and discover. You sort of an explorer is the biggest part of the programme. And if you’re going to do career coaching, everyone needs to do that the sort of the six week explore programme. And just as most of my candidates are two weeks apart for the meetings, you know, takes over three months to explore. And sometimes because it’s quite a big piece. So the way I work is I like to, you know, we have a session and then they’ll be given for once a better word, some homework isn’t that terrible word, but they’ve given you an assignment or, or something like that. And we’ve got some set processes. And the firework programmes are built on, on a lot of the work of john Lee’s, who is a fantastic careers writer, and psychologist, and I’ve been I’ve been in recruitment for over 30 years. And I follow john the whole of that time because he is right at their his leading edge. And a lot of the firework programme that I work with, uses John’s exercises. And he’s all about how to get a job you love. Yeah, we work on that first six week programme, and really get to the bottom of what your values are what you think she wants to do we build an ideas bank, you know, and they’re amazing things people put on their ideas bank, you know, it’s so many things, artists, train drivers, personal fitness instructors, and they could be an accountant in a city bank, and get they’ve got and we did right back down to what did you want to do? You know, when you were young? What, what happened to those dreams? Yeah. And, and from that, you start to see patterns, and you start to see patterns of skills, patterns of values. And from that you get a narrower funnel that enables you to then go ahead and explore what’s you know, discover what’s possible next. Yeah. So

Stuart Webb 17:38

it is fascinating what happens to people when they when they think they know what they want to do with their life, and then they end up in a bank working in a bank, don’t they? It’s, you know, it’s fascinating how we somehow lose all of those dreams when we were five, we all want to be Spaceman and then discover that we’re, how did we get here? Well, you wouldn’t do it again, if you have the choice, that sort of thing.

Denise Matthews 18:01

Parents have an amazing impact on that as well. You know, I hear that over and over again. And even now I’ve got some development. And she says, Well, what my dad would say, she’s 45, you know what my dad would say? And so I can sort of highlight, you know, 20 times in the session, what my dad would say, yeah, yeah. So they do have that impact on us, you know, because they think they know what’s best for us.

Stuart Webb 18:26

Yeah. And it’s always with the best intentions. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. As a parent, I know you, I have to be so careful not to imprint upon particular person, I’m thinking at the moment what I’m thinking they need to do, and end up sort of making them do something that, you know, they would never be suited for, or would never think in their own right. You know, we could be as guilty of being unconscious about it as well. Can we

Denise Matthews 18:55

cope with that target that it is it is unconscious, I think, I do think that and I think the the feeling that people are given the expectations as parents, we set up for them. But again, it all comes from a place of love, because you want the best for them. So you want them to aspire to that. Sometimes it can be quite damaging. Really. Yeah.

Stuart Webb 19:18

Well, moving off that quickly before before psychiatrists amongst us start going on at how this is damaging the future of the of the world. So what’s the the final as I always say, my get out of jail free question, which is the one where ICT was the question. I should have asked you that I haven’t already that you’d like to talk about. And it’s no free reign for you to sort of tell me anything you want to tell me except bad parents.

Denise Matthews 19:42

Yeah, I think we’ve sort of covered a lot of it really well there. And I think for me, I I think it’s what you started with something that’s really important to me. And it’s one of the reasons I got into real career coaching is that to get those lightbulb moments, people really need to stand back and think, really hard. And so I’m actually, I’m actually writing a journal at the moment, which I’m going to publish. And it’s coming out later in the year, and it’s called, would you put a stamp on it. And in the old days, when I was a recruitment consultant, back in the day, you know, we saw a job advertised, usually in a broad print newspaper, or something like that. And we had to, you know, type a pass CV and write a covering letter. And then we had to carefully put it up onto nice paper, fold it over, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it, and what to a red box. So we have to think about it. And I think I’d say that everybody that’s looking for a job at the moment that the fastest finger first is actually really damaging. Just come back to that first question, but I think in a bit more detail. So you know, you do need to go on that journey of exploration. And whether you do it with a career coach, or whether you buy a really great book, like John’s knees, how to get a job you love. And that’s, that’s cracking book, you need to do that, and then decide what your own worth by what you’re going to apply for. So that the panic is removed out of the application process. And that you really, really think about it. And if you do that, there will be lightbulb moments where you suddenly and that’s what I love. When I’m career coaching, you know, we go through something and you suddenly start to see a pattern because someone’s worked out what’s right for them, and where they want to be, and what life will look like in 10 years time. And so they then go out and they can can start to look for jobs that will reflect their passions and their interests, and still support and look after their family. But yeah, would you put a stamp on it is sort of like, is my big thing.

Stuart Webb 22:13

I’m gonna I’m gonna make that a new mantra. Denise, I like I like that. Because, you know, a lot of the time I’m dealing with business owners who are trying to sort of build a business and work with them on how they go about sort of structuring that. And to to ask them a question along the lines of, so is that your best shot? Is that is that really the best it can be? Because too often, I think we are rushed into sort of, you know, let’s, you know, take an example of somebody I’m thinking of at the moment, who, who is the sort of saying, I’ve just got to get my what you said earlier, they were they just want to get a website ready. And they’ve, and you look at it, and you go, but it’s missing half the information it needs? Well, you know, that the answer was, well, I needed to get one out there. And the question was, should be, yeah, but it’s it the right, is it the right one? Is it the would you put a stamp on it? Would you turn around and say it was worth all the effort, and it was ready to be released? So, you know, sometimes we we do we do rush to sort of get our message out. And it’s not as well thought through as it could be. And I’m not suggesting for one minute that, you know, too many people are doing this, but it’s sort of strikes me that, you know, using that metaphor, would you put a stamp on it is a really great way of bringing people back and going, Okay, maybe I should just rethink this for another day. Because it’s not quite got there.

Denise Matthews 23:30

Yet, sometimes. That’s all it is. And, you know, Russell from the talent hub, who was part of my summit, he was the expert recruiter on the summit. And, and he’s got a very well established both a headhunting executive agency, as well as a sort of more generalist business with all levels of jobs. But he was telling me that the frustration as recruiters have you know, that about 75% of applications bear no resemblance to the requirements for what was asked for in the advert. Because it was fastest finger first. And even higher than that, the amount of people that when you ring up and say, you know, right, I’m giving you a call about the job. There, remember, I don’t know any details. All they ask is what’s the salary? And so, yeah, it is. It’s about that, yeah. knowlegeable thoughtful planning. And that helps the recruiter and as well as yourself, and they get you in a better place with the recruiter as well. You know, you need recruiters to be your friends. It’s part of the process. were quite useful. So you do need your recruiter to be someone who really understand you and values the fact that you think about your career and It’s right for you.

Stuart Webb 25:01

Brilliant. Love it. Love it, Denise. Love that one. gonna remember that one. Listen, guys, I’m gonna I’m gonna thank Denise for her time here. I am just going to suggest that if you want to find out more about what’s going on at on these, these video chats. If you go to this website and there’s so many letters in it, I’m going to try and remember them all. HTTP s colon forward slash forward slash TCPA dot FYI, forward slash, subscribe. Just remember TCPA dot FYI, forward slash, subscribe, go there, subscribe, and you’ll get notifications of when we’re doing these. We’re meeting interesting people, I Denise are going to talk about really interesting concepts. Come and join us again, another occasion. Denise, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. I really appreciated it. I know that you’re going to be giving out lots of really interesting stuff on that Facebook group. So I hope people come along and find out more about what you’re up to there. Thanks so much. I was racing by luck.